Hall or No Hall?

Johnny Damon

admin — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:12:40 +0000

A 17-year veteran, Johnny Damon has had a long and fruitful baseball career. Most likely his numbers and accolades will shock you, as much as a man that looks like Jesus should. After starting his career in Kansas City, and a short stint with the A's, Damon found himself as an iconic piece of the 2004 Boston Red Sox World Series Championship team. He won another ring with the rival Yankees (yay free agency!), and since has bounced around to Detroit and Tampa Bay. Approaching the sacred 3,000 hit mark, Hallornohall.com offers insight to Caveman's possibility of having a bronze Jesus to call his own.

Career Statistics (through mid-2011)
G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2388	9394	1623	2688	507	105	225	1098	396	.286	.353	.434	.788

Awards
2 All-Star Selections (2002, 2005)

Hall

by Matt Thompson

Straight out of the heart of Orlando (where I am from), the pride of Dr. Phillips High School is one Johnny "I might be Jesus but they call me Caveman" Damon. This was a truly tough call. But to be upfront, I don't consider a player's career length unless there was a consistency of "above good, almost great play." I also don't buy into winning World Series Championships after a long drought. Yes, I am glad the 2004 Boston Red Sox got a 900-year monkey off their back, but just because Damon was an iconic player on that team does not mean an automatic Hall vote.

I assume Damon has two more years left before he calls it quits. Damon will most likely finish with:

BA	H	2B	R	SB
.280 - .285	2,800 - 2,900	550	1,750	400

Looking at accolades, this is where Damon falls drastically short. Assuming he plays two more years and does not improve, Damon only has two All-Star appearances in 19 years of service while never finishing higher than 13th in MVP voting. Although not an outfielder, when I think of long-tenured, "above good, almost great" players, Craig Biggio comes to mind. Biggio was a 7-time All-Star and finished fourth and fifth in MVP voting in 1997 and 1998, respectively. Biggio's numbers are also better:

BA	H	2B	R	SB
.281	3,060	668	1,844	414

Damon also wasn't known for a special talent (other than his hair) like Ricky Henderson or Lou Brock. However if you go way, way back you can see he has better numbers than a Richie Ashburn. When looking at left fielders, you may be able to state a case against Billy Williams who had an 18 year career. In major statistical categories, this is how Damon's projected numbers stack up:

Player	H	R	HR	BA	RBI	2B	SB
Damon	2,900	1,750	245	.283	1,200	550	400
Williams	2,711	1,410	426	.290	1,475	434	396

And that is where it gets interesting. He has better numbers than Ashburn and is on par or slightly better in most statistical categories than Billy Williams. Being an OF in the steroid era most likely meant you were being overshadowed by steroid-infused players where HR and RBI got them into the All-Star game or MVP voting.

For this, Johnny Damon deserves to be in the Hall. I predict Damon getting in Burt Blyleven style in the 11th hour, but he will be in the Hall nonetheless.

No Hall

by Isaac Rickert

Johnny Damon was originally drafted by the Royals in 1992, moving up to the majors in '95 and quickly became one of my favorite players. In KC, he was part of one the youngest and most productive outfields in the majors with Jermaine Dye and Carlos Beltran. However, it wouldn't last. He was traded to the Athletics and then signed with the Red Sox.

He was always considered lovable, but once he made his way to a larger market, he pushed his way over the top. He helped give the 2004 Red Sox the lovable nickname, "The Idiots,"--a team of pranksters who were fun loving and slightly crazy with their off-the-field antics. And did I mention that he decided that he wanted to win a Jesus look alike contest during that time too?

But being a giant fun loving goofball doesn't make you an immediate lock for the Hall. He has to have some stuff. He has two World Series Championships with two different teams and 2 All-Star appearances. However, he never finished higher than 13th in the MVP voting. Also, he was never the best player on his team or was the player that pushed the BoSox or Yanks over the hump. However, he was always a consistent and extremely productive player.

Take a look at his career stats so far. Pretty good stats. Considering he spent a good amount of time as a lead-off hitter, those numbers look even better. But we have to have a comparison. For measurement purposes, let's use Ken Griffey Jr., a terrific outfielder. In 22 seasons, several of them shortened by injury, The Kid hit:

BA	H	2B	HR	RBI	R	SB
.284	2,781	524	630	1,836	1,662	184

The two played different styles, so maybe a better comparison is Ricky Henderson. He hit:

BA	H	2B	HR	RBI	R	SB
.279	3,055	510	297	1,115	2,295	1,406

Roughly the same, sans stolen bases and runs.

But here's my deal. I love Johnny. He's hilarious and an overall good dude. He played in a tainted era and, as far as we know, played clean. He has two rings, but he was never the reason for them. His stats are up there, but he was never the best dude on the field for his team. He flew under the radar, played good defense until his age caught up with him, but he couldn't crack top 10 in voting for MVP.

Johnny could make it in. But I think people will remember the Red Sox and Yankee runs in 2004 and 2009 and make small footnotes to him as opposed to other players/stars. Johnny is a "No Hall" for me.

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Yao Ming

admin — Sun, 24 Jul 2011 17:16:03 +0000

In 2002, Yao Ming became the first foreign born player to be drafted #1 overall in the NBA. From there, he went on to become one of the best centers during the 2000′s. Unfortunately, injuries have cut his career short and he has recently retired. But when he was playing, he was a force to be reckoned with due to his size, his athleticism, and his intelligence. He was the center piece of a Houston Rockets team that hadn’t seen glory since Hakeem Olajuwan, Charles Barkley and Clyde Drexler were on the team. He made the sport, already internationally popular, even more so. Does he belong with the true greats? Is he hall-worthy?

Shooting		Rebounds		Assists		Blocks		Points
FG%	FT%	RPG	Total	APG	Total	BPG	Total	PPG	Total
.524	.833	9.2	4494	1.6	769	1.9	920	19.0	9247

Awards
8x NBA All Star 2x All-NBA second team 3x All-NBA third team

Hall

by Isaac Rickert

When Yao Ming came into the league, I thought he was gifted, but soft. I immediately wrote him off as a really tall center who could score, but would be dominated by the true centers of the league. This was when Shaq was inequitably the most unstoppable force the NBA had seen in years. I described Yao's prowess as just being taller than everyone on the court.

And then he started to improve all facets of his game. While he was a shot blocker already due to height, he improved over time. While he was a giant on the floor and picked up rebounds, he improved those numbers as well.

But just as he was changing my mind, his huge frame started to show it's giant disadvantage: wear and tear on his body. From 2005 through today, he missed over 200 games including missing all of the 2009-2010 season. He made a brief comeback in 2010, but was quickly placed back on the injured reserve list as he couldn't keep up.

But enough of the negative. What did he do over his career? From an award standpoint, he was the first foreign born player drafted #1 overall. He went to eight all star games. However, he never cracked the All-NBA team (granted he was going against Shaq). He also never accrued important hardware like an MVP trophy or NBA championship. Or, important to Chinese, an Olympic medal.

His stats look like this:

9247 total points
19.0 PPG average
1.9 blocks per game
9.2 rebounds
83% free throw percentage
52% field goal percentage

Not bad numbers. And keeping in mind that he improved his PPG each year through 2007 by around 4 points each season is fairly remarkable.

It's hard to compare him to other HOFers as Ming hasn't even played 10 years yet. David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon each played into their late 30's. But their point and rebound totals are similar (21.1 and 11.1 for Robinson; 21.8 and 11.1 for Olajuwon). But those two also dwarf Ming on blocks (3.1 and 3.3 respectively). And Ming is 5 inches taller than both.

If we go off of pure numbers and awards, the answer has to be "no." He has All-Star votes to his name only. His blocking totals are way too low for someone who is 7'6" and athletic. And no rings. Granted, that was when the Lakers were at their prime, the Pistons put together a team from nothing (the Seinfield of the NBA), the Heat were taking on Shaq to make a run, and the Spurs were the Spurs, but rings do play an important part.

However, I believe he will make it into the Hall. His career was cut short. He will be turning 31 this year. He's only 2 years younger than Kobe. And the fact that he's brought a huge fan base to the NBA from across the Pacific will play a heavy part as well. They're going to give their cash cow a proper reward.

And all things considered, he was a really good player. However, if it wasn't for the large global impact that Ming had, he wouldn't be nearly as sure of a bet.

Hall

by Brad Rizza

Shortly after the Houston Rockets drafted Yao Ming first overall in the 2002 NBA Draft, Charles Barkley wagered Kenny Smith that if Yao scored 20 points in a game during his first rookie season, Charles would smooch Kenny’s rumpus. Barkley also remarked that Yao made the notoriously soft Shawn Bradley look like Bill Russell. Well, within one month, Charles lost his bet and when the 2002-2003 season ended, Yao was voted the Sporting News Rookie of the Year, the Laureus World Sports Award for Breakthrough of the Year, and a unanimous selection to the NBA All-Rookie First Team.

Skepticism hounded Yao throughout the drawn out process of negotiating his release from the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA) and continued to follow him for much of his first few months in the league. Since that time, we’ve come to realize that Yao Ming is quite possibly the most offensively skilled big man to come along in a generation, a role model humanitarian off the court, and one of the most significant and impactful players in the history of the sport. But with injuries forcing Yao to retire before the age of 31, many are saying that Yao didn’t do enough to deserve enshrinement into the Basketball Hall of Fame.

The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame doesn’t give criteria for induction but by merely looking at the international players it has inducted in the last decade, its clear Yao will one day be a Hall of Famer. Since 2000, both Arvydas Sabonis and Drazen Petrovic (who only played until he was 28 years old) have been elected to the Hall mostly for contributions abroad and in International competition. That’s exactly the point. The Hall of Fame isn’t about the NBA, it’s not about the Olympics or the FIBA Championships, it’s about Basketball.

ESPN analyst and former Rocket’s coach Jeff Van Gundy said, "I don't care if you put him in as player, as a contributor or put him in with his own heading. This guy definitely gets in for the greatness as a player when healthy or what he did as ambassador. People forget just how good he was." Let’s look at just how good he was.

Yao led the Chinese National Team to consecutive FIBA Asian Championship gold medals and was named the MVP of all three tournaments. Yao played in two FIBA World Championships, averaging 20.7 points and 9.3 rebounds while shooting 55.9% from the field in 2002 while in 2006, Yao led the tournament in scoring, averaging 25.3 points. In the 2008 Olympics, Yao finished second in scoring average and third in blocks and rebounds per game.

In the NBA, Yao was named to the All-Star team in 8 of his 9 seasons, leading the Rockets to the playoffs four times while averaging 19.8 points, 9.3 rebounds, over 35 minutes per game and totaling a .519 field goal percentage in his almost 30 playoff games.

Let’s compare Yao’s career totals to Hall of Famer, Bill Walton, who only played two more years than Yao.

Player	PPG	RPG	BPG	FT%
Bill Walton	13.3	10.5	2.2	.660
Yao Ming	19.0	9.2	1.9	.833

Walton played in four playoffs in his career, missing one of the four almost entirely. His playoff averages pale in comparison to Yao’s. Let’s look at Yao’s career head-to-head matchups with Dwight Howard, an already pre-ordained future Hall of Fame center.

Player	Games	Wins	PPG	RPG	FT%
D. Howard	9	2	12.2	9.8	.600
Yao Ming	9	7	23.6	10.4	.790

Former teammate and current Rockets center, Chuck Hayes said, "Michael Jackson was before my time. Elvis was before my time but if I had to guess, it was like being around Yao Ming." During the course of his career, Yao has raised or donated over $10 million to noteworthy causes such as SARS prevention, underprivileged children and the 2008 Sichuan earthquake. With Yao retired, it wouldn’t surprise me to see him continue to add to his off-the-court Hall of Fame credentials over the next five years.

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Ronde Barber

admin — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 01:28:53 +0000

Super Bowl champion. 2000′s all decade team. All around good dude. That’s Ronde Barber. He’s a premier corner back for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers who has played more than effectively into years most would consider to be past his prime. His name isn’t on the shortlist of future hall of famers, but he has name recognition, although some of it has to do with his slightly more controversial twin brother, Tiki. But how does he compare to other top notch corners such as Champ Bailey and Deion Sanders? When he finally decides to retire, where will he stand amongst the all-time greats?

Tackles		Interceptions			Fumbles
Total	Sck	PDef	Int	TDs	FF	Rec	TDs
704	26	117	40	7	11	11	4

Awards
5× Pro Bowl selection (2001, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008) 3× First-Team All-Pro selection (2001, 2004, 2005) 2× Second-Team All-Pro selection (2002, 2006) Super Bowl champion (XXXVII) NFL 2000s All-Decade Team

Hall

by Isaac Rickert

Ronde Barber's name has come up in the news a little bit lately. Unfortunately, it's due to his “evil” twin, Tiki, and not because he was 35 last year and played like a true lock down corner. However, let’s not let the fact that Tiki isn’t lovable cloud the fact that Ronde Barber will be retiring soon and his name will become a fixture of “should he or shouldn’t he” have a bust in Canton.

Let’s go over a few of the details first:

704 total tackles (keeping in mind tackles weren’t tracked until the early 2000’s)
26 total sacks (including 5.5 in ‘99)
40 total interceptions
1 ring
5 Pro-Bowls
Named to the 2000’s all decade team
Most consecutive starts by a corner all time

Call him Brett Favre of the corners, this former 3rd rounder has been a constant in Tampa. And, here is probably my favorite part, he’s only played for one team.

First and foremost, just looking at paper, those stats look impressive. He hits a few of my marks right away: Ring(s); named to some form of awesome team (2000’s all decade team); large number in the key stat area (40 INTs).

We’ll look at how he does against other Hallers and Probable Hallers, but the next part of the analysis is whether or not he meets the “Does this guy stand out on his own?” test.

Ronde does lose some in the name recognition battle because corners play an ever so important job, but unless they’re outlandish like Deion or Darelle Revis or they’re just freaks of nature like Deion or Champ Bailey, you get a bit lost. However, Ronde does pass the name barrier just because he’s been dominating for going on 14 seasons and (unfortunately) he is Tiki’s twin.

Also, having appeared in a commercial with his brother in 2002 after he got his ring helps out too. (Extra bonus points for the commercial pointing out that Tiki didn’t win a Super Bowl).

Now it’s comparison time. Here’s who he’s going against: Deion Sanders, Champ Bailey, Dick LeBeau, and Emmit Thomas (NOTE: tackles will only be looked at for Champ because Deion, LeBeau and Thomas played before it became an official stat. Also, when Emmit Thomas and LeBeau were playing, sacks weren’t included as an official stat.).

Player	INTs	TDs	Sacks	Tackles
Deion Sanders	53	9	1
Champ Bailey	48	4	3	591
Emmitt Thomas	58	5
Dick LeBeau	62	3

As you can see, Ronde stacks up well against those who are already in, or in Champ’s case, likely to get in. He doesn’t have as many INTs, but he beats both Champ and Deion handily in the sack category. And then when it comes to INT returns, he dwarfs them all, minus Deion.

And here’s my last stat that I have withheld for now. He is one of 9 players to have 20 sacks and 20 INTs. What makes him different than the rest is that he’s the ONLY corner in the list. It’s 5 linebackers and three safeties. But Ronde as a corner has made it.

The only thing that might hurt him is the fact that he isn’t as flashy as Champ or Deion and the fact that the Bucs since 2002 to the present have been mediocre and are in a smaller market. That penetration might limit those who know him. Also, what will be brought up is the fact that Ronde has been with some pretty amazing defenders (Warren Sapp, Derrick Brooks, John Lynch, Dexter Jackson) during his early years.

However, I think he breaks down that barrier. He has the stats. He has the ring. He’s been a monster on a bad team for most of the decade. He’s a yes. Get that bust ready.

Hall

by Brad Rizza

Since being drafted in the 3^rd round of the 1997 NFL Draft, Ronde Barber has been the perfect foil to his twin brother Tiki, drafted a round earlier in the same draft. While Tiki’s career was characterized by a five to six year stretch of elite play only punctuated by a reoccurring fumbling problem, Ronde has become the poster child for consistency and longevity. However, the same virtues that separate Ronde from Tiki are precisely the arguments used to disqualify Ronde as a potential candidate for the NFl Hall of Fame. “Ronde was never a dominant player, he did not get national acclaim for his talents, he never received a major award, Ronde was a system corner who benefited from stellar defensive teammates.”

In Tampa Bay in the early 2000s, Ronde did not possess the experience of Derek Brooks, the flashiness of Warren Sapp, or the bone crushing hitting ability of John Lynch but Barber was the backbone of that defense, ranked first in the NFL in 2002. That same year, Barber was named Defensive MVP in the NFC Championship Game, prior to Super Bowl XXXVII. Is Barber merely a product of a great system? Well, Barber has been with the team for thirteen years and he has experienced three different head coaches, three defensive coordinators, and various generations of players. In those thirteen years, Barber has led Tampa Bay to a top ten defense eleven times and a top five defense eight times.

Barber will occasionally catch criticism for his lack of interceptions yet he has had multiple interceptions in 12 of his 11 years in the league (highlighted by 10 in 2001) and the relatively low career numbers can be partially explained by the implementation of the Tampa 2 during most of his tenure with the Bucs. Monte Kiffin and his scheme placed major emphasis pressuring the quarterback, smart play and flawless tackling. Barber was not encouraged to take risks and he didn’t.

Do I believe Ronde Barber will get into the Hall in his first three years of eligibility? No. But he should be elected to the hall eventually. Barber was elected to the Pro Bowl five times in an eight year span and is the all-time leader in sacks by a cornerback with 26 (for comparison, Charles Woodson, seen as a potential Hall of Famer, has 11.5). Barber holds the all-time record for most consecutive starts for a cornerback, he is third all-time in defensive touchdowns, and is the only player in NFL history with at least 25 sacks and 40 interceptions.

In Pro Football Reference’s list if the ten players whose careers were most similar to Barbers, nine are hall of famers: Herb Adderley, Night Train Lane, Mel Renfro, Mike Haynes*, Willie Wood, Champ Bailey, Mel Blount, Ronnie Lott, Jimmy Johnson and Deion Sanders. The lone non-hall of famer? The not yet eligible, Champ Bailey. It will be interesting to see how many more years Ronde can continue to play at a high level as he continues to climb his upper 30’s.

Barber has remained with one organization his entire career, an organization that was clearly among the dominant franchises in the league in the early 2000’s, has maintained a reputation as an invaluable locker room presence and is seen as one of the most charitable ambassadors of the league. Barber has been elected to the NFL’s All Decade team (2000’s) and has a Super Bowl ring. If Barber had the outspoken personality and off the field fireworks of his twin brother, Ronde may have garnered more national interest.

Barber won’t be a first or second ballot hall of famer, but after a number of years pass, after his vote tallies continue to slowly rise each year, Barber will get in. While all-time leaders in the NFL are not revered as they are in Major League Baseball, voters will recognize that one of the most successful cornerbacks in the leagues history deserves enshrinement.

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Pete Rose

admin — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:34:28 +0000

Charlie Hustle. To most baseball fans, that's all you need to say. The nickname alone conjures up images of a mop-topped, clay-stained uniform flying into third base or home plate with reckless abandon. As soon as the first pitch crossed the plate, there was no let up in his play until the final batter was retired. Pete Rose, as a player, was a shoo-in to the Hall of Fame. But that certain path was detoured after Pete Rose, the manager, was tangled up in a gambling scandal that ultimately led to his banishment from the game of baseball. Twenty years after his lifetime ban, the debate still rages. Is there a place for Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame?

Career Statistics
G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
3562	14053	2165	4256	746	135	160	1314	198	.303	.375	.409	.784

Awards
2 Gold Gloves (1969, 1970) 1 Hutch Award (1968) 1 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award (1969) 1 MVP (1973) 1 Roberto Clemente Award (1976) 1 Rookie of the Year (1963) 1 Silver Slugger (1981) 1 WS MVP (1975) 17 All-Star Selections (1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1985)

Hall

by Jonathan Brown

There should be a photo of Pete Rose next to the term "tragic hero" in the dictionary. Pete Rose is the MacBeth of pro sports. Hubris? Check. Downfall caused by his own actions? Check. Understands the inevitability of his fate? Check. Faced with a monumental decision between right and wrong? Check. Learns from his mistakes? Eh...

Obviously, the Pete Rose debate is not one about statistics. There's not a single person on the face of the Earth who would disagree that Pete Rose accomplished more in baseball than any other player in the history of the game. The list of Rose's accolades and superlatives is longer than a Cheesecake Factory menu.

The guy played just about every position. He managed. He played and managed at the same time! And those 4,256 hits...I don't think someone will ever do that again.

And no, the Rose debate is not about ethics and sports. The Pete Rose debate is about the game of baseball. And baseball is bigger than any single player and any single incident. It's about the past and the future. It's about the sanctimony of the game itself.

Baseball has seen many ugly incidents, but the biggest sin anyone can commit in baseball is putting the integrity of the game in doubt. The 1919 Black Sox did just that and that's how the Commissioner role came to be. The role of the Commissioner is to protect the purity of the game. You can't fault Bud Selig or his predecessors for ruling and upholding Rose's lifetime ban from baseball.

I consider myself a baseball purist. I don't like inter-league play. I don't care for the wildcard. I despise the designated hitter. The steroid scandal that has plagued the sport lately hurts me deeply. I want the game to be clean. I want the history, tradition and romanticism of the sport to live on strong. I like to think that I'm passing the sport to my daughter by taking her to Spring Training games every year (so far she just likes the cotton candy and the atmosphere).

Unlike Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens, Pete Rose played the game clean. He amassed his records the old-fashioned way—with heart and hustle, just like you're told as a kid. He didn't need the extra muscle to beat you. He just needed another chance. He was simply the best player on the field in every game.

But we need a compromise. What Pete Rose did was wrong, but is it any more wrong than what Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens did? Pete Rose's record breaking output wasn't an affect of his gambling habits. Pete Rose, the baseball player, accomplished god-like things on the baseball diamond. For those feats, his legacy should be recognized and celebrated in the Hall of Fame. But that doesn't mean Pete Rose the person needs to be respected in the same manner.

I believe Pete Rose's bust should be in Cooperstown recognizing his achievements and his downfall. His bust should bear a Scarlett Letter of sorts carrying a message to the kids saying that even though Pete Rose was an incredible ball player, he made mistakes and is paying the consequences for his actions. Pete Rose should not be invited or allowed to attend the induction ceremony. His bust should just appear one day without pageantry.

In my opinion, that is a fair outcome. You see, Pete Rose wants the fanfare of induction day. He wants the public recognition and the spotlight, evident by his grand-standing every year during induction week. He wants validation from the writers, the fans and the sport. And he shouldn't get that.

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Derrick Mason

admin — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 04:40:34 +0000

Derrick Mason, not typically in the HoF discussion, has quietly assembled a solid career as wide receiver for the Tennessee Titans and the Baltimore Ravens. After a brief retirement, Mason will return to the Ravens for the 2009-10 season looking to finish what he started. Can he continue where he left off with 1000+ yards seven out of his last eight seasons? How does Mason stack up against other wide receivers of his generation? Will Derrick Mason have enough left in his tank to make it to the Hall?

Receiving						KO Return			Punt Return
G	REC	YDS	Y/G	AVG	TD	KR	KR YDS	KR TD	PR	PR YDS	PR TD
186	790	10061	54.1	12.7	52	156	3496	1	182	1590	2

Awards
2 Pro Bowl Selections (2000, 2003)

No Hall

by Matt Thompson

If you are surprised we chose Derrick Mason for a debate, well...you should be. Or if you are like me, Mason has always been a solid number two option for your fantasy team in maybe the 7th or 8th round. Then ESPN showed a stat that came out of no where—Mason has the third highest number of receptions since 2001. Sneaky, Derrick Mason.

On top of that, solving the receiver shortage in the Hall of Fame is no easy task. When reviewing the post-1980 receivers in the Hall, you have Art Monk, Michael Irvin, Steve Largent, and James Lofton. There are a handful of guys that made the Hall who started their careers in the mid-70s and played to the mid-80s, but I think we can agree this is a way different NFL. Back then guys played football then moved furniture in the offseason because they needed cash, not because it was an offseason training program.

If you look at those four WRs already in the Hall, here are their stats:

Player	G	REC	Yds	TD
Lofton	233	764	14004	75
Largent	200	819	13089	100
Monk	224	940	12721	68
Irvin	159	750	11904	65
Mason	186	790	10061	52

You could make an educated guess and say the minimum you need to get in the Hall is to be slightly better than Irvin. And this is a minimum because Irvin has three rings and is on TV all the time. TV helps. You are always in front of writers, and the way ESPN glorifies every player on their network, you get some extra atta-boys and that goes a long way. If you read any of my other posts you know how I feel about championships.

Derrick Mason has some great numbers—186 games, 790 receptions, 10,061 yards and 52 TDs. Mason also served as a kick return guy early in his career and amassed another 3,500 return yards with 1 TD.

The problem with Mason is his output versus Irvin's. In 27 more games, he barely has more receptions, almost 2,000 less yards and 13 fewer TDs. The best Mason can do is play two more years in which he should finish with 925 receptions, 11,500-12,000 yards, and 60 TDs (Mason has never had more than 9 TDs in a single season).

Comparing Mason to the stars of his generation, he is not even close. Terrell Owens and Randy Moss have far more yards (Owens with over 14,000 and Moss with over 13,000) and both have more than double the amount of TDs than Mason.

Derrick Mason is a consistent option at WR. His career has been exceptional considering he is 5 foot 10 and played on teams that were defense first and when the offense got the ball, it was a run-first-pass-if-we-had-to philosophy. Unfortunately, he is what I thought he was every year in the 7th round of fantasy football...a great option for my number two WR.

No Hall for Mason.

No Hall

by Jonathan Brown

When Matt first brought forth the idea of writing about Derrick Mason, my first reaction was..."Who?" I'm being facetious, but really, who knows anything about Derrick Mason other than he's a wide receiver and he played for the Titans for quite a few years and now plays for the Ravens?

I figured I would have to write my "The Catcher in the Rye" of Hall or No Hall posts to make a case for his bust appearing in Canton, and honestly, I'm not that good of a writer. What's the saying...something about lipstick on a pig?

That's not a dig on Mason, who is a handsome man, but quite frankly, his career has been middle-of-the-road and he's flown way under the radar. He's playing in an era chalk full of loud-mouth show-offs like Terrell Owens, Randy Moss and Chad Johns...err Ocho Cinco. But I have to give Derrick the consideration he deserves.

Upon first glance at Mason's career numbers, they look okay. Nothing is blowing my mind here. I need some context in the form of recent HoF inductees to get a better picture. Let's take a look at Michael Irvin (Class of '07) and Art Monk (Class of '08).

Player	G	REC	Yds	AVG	TD
Monk	224	940	12721	13.5	68
Irvin	159	750	11904	15.9	65
Mason	186	790	10061	12.7	52

As I mentioned in my Steve McNair post, Canton loves astronomical statistics or championships. Art Monk and Michael Irvin both have three rings and rather pedestrian statistics. Derrick Mason has no championships, and through the 2008-09 season, less numbers than Monk and Irvin. Even with better numbers than Irvin, it took Monk a long time to get into the Hall. That does not bode well for Derrick Mason.

Given that Mason was in retirement in July but decided to come back means he doesn't have that many good years left. He needs another couple 1,000-yard seasons to seriously enter the discussion, a feat he's accomplished seven out of his last eight years. For the sake of argument, let's assume he can squeeze another two seasons out of his body and is able to put up typical Mason-like years—about 1,072 yards and 5 touchdowns. Currently he's #30 on the all-time receiving yards list. So projecting about 2,000 yards and 10 touchdowns should move him up to about #17—just above Irvin.

But the list of receivers who are not in the Hall of Fame ahead of Mason on the all-time list reads like a who's who of wide receivers—Isaac Bruce, Tim Brown, Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, Cris Carter, Henry Ellard, Randy Moss, Andre Reed, Torry Holt and Jimmie Smith. Those guys already have better numbers than Mason and some of them have championships to boot.

I'm afraid I've just run out of ways to make Mason look like a HoFer. He's only 35 years old and part of his reason for returning was an "intense fire inside" to finish it. If Derrick can muster up another three seasons of solid play like he has the last nine, maybe we can have this HoF discussion again. But for now, given what we know, we'll have to close the book on Mason. Sorry, Derrick, No Hall!

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Pedro Martinez

admin — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 02:00:53 +0000

Pedro Martinez never shies away from a challenge. Whether it's the best hitters the American League has to offer, a journalist with a recorder or a very old bench coach, Martinez is a fearless pitcher who refuses to relinquish the inner part of the plate to anyone. Considered one of the best pitchers to take the mound in the last twenty years, he's earned three Cy Young Awards and a Championship ring. Does Pedro stack up against the best of all-time? Is he Hall or no Hall?

Career Statistics (through 2008)
G	IP	H	R	HR	BB	SO	W	L	SV	WHIP	BAA	ERA
467	8348	2173	988	232	752	3117	214	99	3	1.05	.218	2.91

Awards
1 AS MVP (1999) 3 Cy Youngs (1997, 1999, 2000) 1 Triple Crown (1999) 3 TSN Pitcher of the Years (1999, 2000, 1997) 8 All-Star Selections (1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006)

Hall

by Jonathan Brown

Whether it's the physical toll of taking the ball every five days or the mental chess game, pitchers are a strange bunch. Pedro Martinez is no exception. From outrageous quotes (beaming Babe in the ass, Yankees my daddy) to bizarre mini-me celebrations, the uber confident Martinez has an off-the-mound highlight reel that rivals that of Terrell Owens. And we can't go without mentioning the pile-driving of Popeye. That was just wrong.

Shenanigans aside, when it comes to pitchers and the Hall of Fame, I think you have to read deeper into a subset of seasons rather than looking at career totals to determine how well a pitcher stacks up against his peers. Let's start with the accolades. Pedro is a 3-time Cy Young Award winner (1997, 1999, 2000) and 1999 AL Triple Crown winner (leader in ERA, W, K). He also has 8 All-Star selections to boot.

For all of those accolades pinned on Pedro Martinez, you'd think that he was the most dominant pitcher from the mid 1990's to mid 2000's. Let's take a look at the top pitchers from 1997, Pedro's break-out year with the Montreal Expos, through 2005 before injuries caught up with him.

Pitcher	W	L	PCT	ERA	SO	WHIP	CY
Johnson	159	73	.688	2.81	2663	1.069	4
Maddux	153	85	.643	3.19	1409	1.126	0
Martinez	149	53	.738	2.47	2196	0.969	3
Clemens	149	61	.710	3.22	1912	1.194	4

You can't dispute the impressiveness of that list. They won 11 Cy Young Awards during that stretch. It's pretty clear we've found the best pitchers in the league. While Pedro is tied with Clemens for 3rd in wins over that 8-year stretch, he leads the list in winning percentage, ERA and WHIP. In my opinion, Randy Johnson was the most dominant pitcher during this period, and even though Clemens has one more Cy Young than Pedro, statistically, Martinez is the better pitcher.

As I started searching for comparable Hall of Fame pitchers, it became pretty clear that Martinez was matching up well. Truth be told, there are so many pitchers with similar numbers, it was tough deciding which I should use to justify my case for Pedro. Let's take a look at Whitey Ford, Catfish Hunter and Don Drysdale—a literal pantheon of championship pitchers—and compare their career totals to Martinez's totals through the end of the 2008 season.

Pitcher	W	L	PCT	ERA	SO	WHIP	CY
Ford	236	106	0.690	2.745	1956	1.215	1
Hunter	224	166	0.574	3.256	2012	1.134	1
Martinez	214	99	0.684	2.914	3117	1.051	3
Drysdale	209	166	0.557	2.948	2486	1.148	1

As you can see, very similar W, ERA and WHIP totals, with Martinez barely trailing Ford in winning percentage. What this story doesn't completely tell is how Pedro thoroughly dominates batters compared to the other guys. Pedro, in only 400 starts (the fewest of the list by 38 starts) managed to accrue 3,117 strikeouts, 631 more Ks than Don Drysdale had in 65 more games! That is an amazing statistic for a starting pitcher in the 5-man rotation/relief era of baseball!

What Pedro will be remembered for the most is winning...and his wrestling skills...and his ridiculous mouth...and, oh, did I mention his uncanny ability to beam hitters? It's a footnote in his story, but we have to mention Pedro's unusually high hit batsmen numbers for innings pitched. I'm sure his Papa is proud. His career .684 win percentage makes him 6th on the all-time list of pitchers with a minimum of 150 starts. I don't think Pedro will have any problem getting into the Hall of Fame.

Hall

by Matt Thompson

And we are off now with our first pitcher. When we were deciding on who to select for the next player on Hall or No Hall, Pedro Martinez was pitching AAA ball for the Phillies. Jon even asked, "Isn't he retired?" Martinez has only pitched 48 games since 2005 so his question was understandable.

When I think of Pedro Marinez, I think of Sandy Koufax. Okay, I am only 32 years old, but I love baseball history and Koufax was amazing. Koufax started 314 games (397 total) with a .655 winning percentage (165 wins and 87 losses), a 2.76 ERA, 137 complete games, 806 runs, 40 shutouts, 2,324 innings pitched, 2,396 Ks and gave up 1,754 hits. That is a crapload of stats but here is what sticks out to me:

.655 winning percentage

40 shutouts (almost 10% of his starts)

one strikeout per inning pitched

There are certain things I do not buy when deciding whether a pitcher belongs in the Hall of Fame. One is volume of wins. Wins are such a crapshoot because baseball is a team sport. Now, you could argue that a great pitcher overcomes a team's flaws, but if 25 hits are the difference between hitting .291 and hitting .333 (600 AB)—and that could mean a ground ball here or there—then wins have a ton more variables. Errors, runs scored, opposing pitcher all play a crucial role in a pitcher getting a win.

Pedro Martinez has started 400 games (467 total), has a 2.91 ERA, a .684 wining percentage (214 wins to 99 losses), 17 shutouts, 46 complete games, 3,117 strikeouts in 2,782 innings pitched, 2,173 hits and 988 runs. Okay, throw out complete games because in the current era of baseball a pitcher has seven innings each game to make a career (although Pedro had 13 complete games in 1997).

Since Pedro pitched in the steroid era this fact is astounding—from 1997-2003 he had an ERA of 2.21. That means while players were juicing up, the little 170 pound (soaking wet) Pedro Martinez was at his strongest. In fact, he led the league five of those seven years in ERA and one of those years he was hurt (2001).

What sticks out to me most is his winning percentage of .684 and the fact that over 18 years he still has not lost 100 games. I know, I know if I said wins mean nothing then I can't buy losses either. But only 99 losses is amazing! Pedro has also given up 121 hits per year versus Koufax's 147 per year. If the goal of a pitcher is to pitch the ball and not allow the batter to get a hit, then Martinez certainly is one hell of a pitcher.

Digging one step deeper, Koufax gave up 67 runs a year in his career. Martinez has only given up 55. So the next goal of a pitcher is if he gives up a hit, to not let the runner score regardless of the situation. This is why I throw out earned runs and go with runs. Once again, Martinez shines.

Pedro Martinez is no doubt a first ballot Hall of Famer. If you don't believe it, he will probably hit you with a baseball. I forgot to mention, Pedro has plugged 137 batters. DOH!

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Andre Dawson

admin — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 04:05:52 +0000

Andre 'The Hawk' Dawson, the 1977 Rookie of the Year, spent the majority of his career north of the border in Montreal. There, he flashed his power and speed, roaming center field and earning six of his eight Gold Gloves. But the artificial turf in Olympic Stadium took its toll on The Hawk's knees. In 1987, he was given another chance with the Chicago Cubs where he immediately began paying dividends, earning the NL MVP. Andre Dawson played 21 seasons. He had a productive career, but was it enough to get in to the Hall of Fame?

Career Statistics
G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2627	9927	1373	2774	503	98	438	1591	314	.279	.323	.482	.805

Awards
8 Gold Gloves (1987, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988) 1 Hutch Award (1994) 1 MVP (1987) 1 Rookie of the Year (1977) 4 Silver Sluggers (1980, 1981, 1983, 1987) 8 All-Star Selections (1981, 1982, 1983, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991)

No Hall

by Matt Thompson

As I waited for the page to load to look at The Hawk's stats versus other outfielders, I started to see a serious list of Hall of Famers—Hank Aaron, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Babe Ruth, etc. Yeah, you read it...Babe Effin' Ruth. Then once the page loaded, I saw Dawson went to FAMU (Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University). Go Rattlers!

Here is the lowdown on Andre "The Hawk" Dawson—21 seasons, .279 BA, 438 HR, 1591 RBI, 2774 H, .414 SLG, 1373 R, 314 SB, and 503 2B. Quite honestly, I thought his numbers were better.

I grew up as a Dawson fan, partly because he played with Tim Raines in Montreal and I played baseball with Raines' son. It was also a big deal when Raines was at the ballpark and you followed the Expos. Yep, those Expos. Back in the day, our leaf-loving neighbors to the North had a pretty good squad with Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Andre Dawson, and Tim Wallach. If you could catch Pasqual Perez pitch the ephus it was a real treat. Anyway...

Digging a little deeper, Dawson won an MVP (finished second in MVP voting twice), a Rookie of the Year, eight Gold Gloves, and had eight All-Star appearances (even though I think these are worthless). The biggest question is...in 1989, besides making his baseball card value in Beckett skyrise, what the hell did he do? He had 49 HR. In his ten previous seasons, once did he have 30 HR. It was not even a contract year. You know the whole "it's a contract year so I start trying" routine? Yeah...did not apply because it was his first year with the Cubs.

So let's look at stacking The Hawk up against other HoFers. Ummm...maybe not. He does not touch those players I previously mentioned, but he does compare with a player in the hall who played roughly the same time—Dave Winfield.

Winfield played in about 300 more games (about 1,000 ABs) than Dawson, but here are the stats—.283 BA, 465 HR, 1833 RBI, .475 SLG, 3110 H, 1669 R, 540 2B and Big Dave didn't steal much. Crazy how much more output in hits a career .283 hitter is (Winfield) versus .279 (Dawson). However, Dave never made it past third in MVP balloting.

The MVP balloting is what makes it hard. Where a player finishes in the MVP race shows how he stacked up against other players of his time. A dude like Big Dave put together a nice resume, but got there because of longevity. Dawson was the best or second best player in his league three times. And if you want to take a decade and analyze a player's performance, three out of ten years with that stat ain't too shabby.

Is there anyone, I mean anyone else, Dawson could stack up against in the modern era? Puckett? Nope. Puckett had a ridiculous amount of hits. Gwynn? Forget it. Jim Rice? Ah, yes...Jim Rice.

The only thing Rice has on Dawson is BA and SLG—a lifetime BA of .298 and .502 SLG (which is weird because he ended up with only 373 doubles). Dawson has more HR, RBI, H, and 2B. Rice won a MVP and only finished in the top three one other time.

Final verdict? Throwing a curveball here...Dawson is not hall worthy. A great career, but the numbers just don't stack up. I don't believe playing forever should get you into the Hall and I have no idea how Jim Rice made it in the first place.

Disclaimer: Dawson will probably be elected in 2010 because he will be the player next on the list with the highest amount of votes not in the Hall of Fame.

Hall

by Jonathan Brown

Growing up in Florida, way before the Marlins and Rays, we had two choices to get a baseball fix—TBS with the Braves and WGN with the Cubs. As I previously mentioned, the Braves became my team, but the Cubbies came in second. Many a summer day, I'd watch the Cubs, voiced by Harry Caray and Steve Stone. Shawon Dunston's cannon at short, Rick Sutcliffe and his mullet on the mound, Mark Grace at first and Ryne "Ryno" Sandberg (Class of '05) roaming at second. But who could forget The Hawk flying around in right field?

Andre Dawson has flirted with the Hall of Fame since he became eligible in 2002 when he earned 45.3% of the votes. Each year since his stock has risen with his highest tally in 2009--67%, just 8 points shy of election. It's plain to see, based on the voting trend, that writers are beginning to look past the gaudy steroid numbers to a time where baseball was a bit cleaner--minus the cocaine and gambling and what-not. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dawson get into the Hall in 2010, but does he belong?

If you look at pure statistics over Andre's 21-year career, it doesn't look like he accumulated enough to warrant his place in the Hall. Even though he belted 438 HR (at one point in time an automatic free pass unless your last name is Kingman), he only mustered three 30+ HR seasons. He didn't hit for average either, registering only five seasons with a .300+ AVG, four of those seasons good enough to win a Silver Slugger.

Let's compare Dawson's numbers to a player with strikingly similar skills who was recently voted into the Hall--Dave Winfield (Class of '01). For kicks, let's throw in 2009 inductee, Jim Rice.

Player	AVG	H	HR	RBI	SB	OBP	SLG
Winfield	.283	3110	465	1833	223	.355	.475
Rice	.298	2452	382	1451	58	.352	.502
Dawson	.279	2774	438	1591	314	.323	.482

These numbers are very similar. It really looks like Dawson was one decent season away from being a no-brainer HoFer. Dawson's lifetime .279 AVG would put him among the lowest of all HoF outfielders, tied with Ralph Kiner and better than only Reggie Jackson (Class of '93). Dawson's 438 HR is good enough for #36 on the all-time HR list. His 1,591 RBI puts him at #34 of all time and his 2,774 hits is what we call #45 on the all-time hits list. Based on pure numbers, I have to say that Dawson is certainly on the fence, but I'm not overwhelmed. Let's consider his superlatives to see if The Hawk can teeter to the Hall side.

Even though All-Star selections don't mean anything these days, Dawson did earn eight of them when they meant something. He owns eight Gold Gloves, a Rookie of Year (1977) and a NL MVP award for his stellar 1987 season in which he belted 49 HR and drove in 137 RBI. If there's anything that can put Dawson over the edge it's the fact that he was a solid 5-tool (well, maybe 4.5 tool) guy and a flat out ballplayer for which he earned a Hutch Award in 1994. He is one of six players in the 300-300 club (300+ HR and 300+ SB) and the second to reach the 400-300 club.

If there's ever a been fence candidate, Andre Dawson is certainly one. You can't deny the similarities between Dawson and HoFers Winfield and Rice. You could argue that the superlatives are a wash. You can also argue that Jim Rice doesn't belong in the HoF (I personally don't think he does, but that's a different post). Dawson is in the top 50 in HR, RBI and H and it's too difficult to look past the 400-300 club as some meaningless statistic. I believe that pushes Andre Dawson over the edge and makes him a Hall of Famer.

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Steve McNair

admin — Fri, 07 Aug 2009 17:38:57 +0000

Steve McNair was one of the toughest quarterbacks to ever take a snap in an NFL game. He played through pain and injury and was fearless in and out of the pocket. Drafted third in the 1995 NFL Draft by the Houston Oilers, McNair didn’t take the helm until the 1997 season. After two 8-8 seasons, McNair lead his Titans to Super Bowl XXXIV where they most memorably came up a foot short of the goal line on a pass to Kevin Dyson as time ran out. Nicknamed “Air” McNair, he was as impressive with his legs as he was with his arm, racking up 31,304 passing and 3,590 rushing yards. So the question remains, is he Hall or No Hall?

Career Passing										Career Rushing
G	QB	COMP	ATT	PCT	YDS	Y/G	Y/A	TD	INT	RUSH	YDS	Y/G	AVG	TD
161	82.8	2733	4544	60.1	31304	194.4	6.9	174	119	669	3590	22.3	5.4	37

Awards
1 Co-AP NFL MVP (2003) 1 All-Pro Selection (2003) 3 Pro Bowl Selections (2000, 2003, 2005)

Hall

by Matt Thompson

First and foremost, what happened to Steve McNair was tragic. Two months ago when Jon and I decided to work on hallornohall.com, we discussed football players and McNair was at the top of the list. Any player that played the game the way he did—with all heart and little disregard for his body—deserved a place on our site. This almost feels like a tribute.

I remember hearing about McNair on Sportscenter in high school. His numbers at Alcorn State were astonishing. His senior year: 6,000 yards rushing and passing, 53 TDs. As a I-AA player he finished third in the Heisman voting; something we may never see again with the popularity of college sports.

McNair played from 1995- 2007 with 1997-2006 being the years he will truly be measured by. Looking at similar careers of Hall of Famers, one player stands out—Joe Namath. Before I even started writing this entry, I thought of Namath being comparable. By all accounts I've heard, Namath wasn't the best QB, but he played with a lot of heart. That's exactly what comes to mind when thinking about McNair. As it turns out, Namath also had a 12-year career.

McNair ended up with a 60.1 completion percentage, over 31,000 yards, 211 total TDs (174 passing and 37 rushing), 119 INTs, an 82.8 passer rating and 3,590 rushing yards. And McNair finished two feet from winning an NFL championship. McNair's teams also finished in the playoffs 6 of his 12 seasons.

McNair's stats kill Namath's in every category. But, then again, we all know Namath got into the Hall because of a prediction and that he could outdrink every writer. Okay, only part of that is true. Namath had fewer TDs (180 total, 173 passing), more INTs (220), less yards (27,663) and a paltry 65.5 QB rating. Hell, Namath only completed half of his passes!

I had to dig deeper. Namath is a HoF Hailey's Comet, and judging by his statistics, Kerri Collins will be in the HoF. Enter Troy Aikman. Aikman played about the same amount of time (1989-2000) and had fewer TDs than McNair (174 total), a comparable passer rating (81.6) and completion percentage (61.4%), and slightly more passing yards (32, 942). The final comparison is championships, and Aikman had three.

Aikman was surrounded by superstar talent. Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, and probably the best offense line in the modern era (turns out also the biggest drug dealers). McNair had Eddie George for some time, Derrick Mason (who is not Michael Irvin), and Clay Matthews (who is just one man).

As you can guess, I do not think championships leap a QB into the HoF. Last I checked, this is a team sport and I am always reminded by Bobby Bowden's comments when it comes to winning a championship—you need some luck. I think this applies to all levels. Because I think winning a championship makes you rely on others and some luck, I feel Dan Marino is the greatest QB that ever played the game. A QB should try to win at all costs and if that means throwing the ball 60 times a game (in the case of Marino) or rushing three yards for a first down with crazy ass linebackers running at your head like McNair, then a QB does it to the best of his abilities. McNair's abilities were elite for his era.

McNair, no doubt, is a Hall of Fame QB.

No Hall

by Jonathan Brown

As we prepare for the 2009-10 NFL season, and not so ironically, the Hall of Fame Game in Canton, Ohio, we'll be doing so without Steve McNair. I learned of McNair's death flipping television channels on the evening of July 4th. I caught his name in a news ticker and paused, waiting for the scroll to pass by again. Like most sports fans, I was shocked. Such a peculiar and curious situation turned out to be a much darker story than initially understood. It's a tragic scenario and the sports world will miss him.

Steve "Air" McNair—what a great name for a quarterback. Currently, there are only 23 quarterbacks in the Football Hall of Fame and the most recent inductees are giants—Warren Moon, Troy Aikman, Dan Marino, Steve Young and John Elway. Right off the bat, I'm skeptical of McNair's numbers and how they stack up to that list. Of those quarterbacks, Steve Young and John Elway are the two guys with a similar style of play to McNair. All three could hurt you with their arms and when necessary, their legs.

I'm going to focus on Steve Young because the numbers between Young and McNair are similar. Let's compare their passing statistics.

Player	G	COMP	YDS	TD	INT	RATE
Young	169	2667	33124	232	107	96.8
McNair	161	2733	31304	174	119	82.8

At first glance, it looks like McNair matches well against Young. However, when you start digesting the numbers, and considering only eight games separate the two players, it becomes clear that Young was in a different hemisphere than McNair. Young's TD-INT ratio is unbelievable, reflected in his 96.8 career passer rating. While McNair's numbers are respectable, I think we have to look at another quarterback if we want to make a case for McNair based on pure passing numbers.

So let's consider his rushing game. McNair rushed for 3,590 yards and 37 TDs. But he also had a mad case of the fumble fingers with 99 fumbles in 669 attempts. On paper, it looks like McNair's legs hurt him more than helped him, but having watched him play, we know that paper numbers can lie. Young is better in all of those rushing categories with 4,239 yards, 43 TDs and only 68 fumbles in 722 attempts. McNair's rushing numbers are still impressive but they look eerily similar to another famous rushing QB not currently in the Hall of Fame, Randall Cunningham.

Having looked at all 23 HoF quarterbacks, it becomes clear to gain entry into the Hall you must have extremely gaudy numbers (ala Dan Marino) or have at least one Super Bowl/AFL/NFL title (ala Joe Namath). The numbers criteria is self-explanatory—they define your technical ability to play the quarterback position. Championships, on the other hand, measure a quarterback's leadership on the field.

It will be interesting to see how the Hall of Fame Board views McNair's career in light of his recent tragedy. Co-MVP and three Pro-Bowl selections aside, it's unfortunate for Steve McNair's legacy and Titans' fans that I don't think he had what it takes. Having failed to capture his championship, albiet by only a couple of feet, McNair is lacking the statistical prerequisites for a quarterback to be in the Hall of Fame.

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Chipper Jones

admin — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 00:44:44 +0000

Chipper Jones, the first pick in the 1990 amateur draft and the cornerstone of the Atlanta Braves offense since 1995, has been one of the most consistent hitters in baseball. During Atlanta's run of eleven straight NL East titles, Chipper picked up two Silver Slugger Awards and a NL MVP award. After starting his career with eight consecutive seasons with 100+ RBI, injuries have hampered Jones over the last five years. So the question remains...is Chipper Jones Hall or no Hall?

Career Statistics (through 2008)
G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2023	7337	1378	2277	449	35	408	1374	138	.310	.408	.548	.956

Awards
1 MVP (1999) 2 Silver Sluggers (1999, 2000) 6 All-Star Selections (1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2008)

Hall

by Jonathan Brown

I must start with a confession and a disclaimer. I'm a huge Atlanta Braves fan. I've had a Chipper Jones poster on my wall since 1995. I just lied. I don't really have a Chipper Jones poster anymore (that would be a bit weird), but Chipper is my favorite ballplayer. Fanboy-ism aside, Chipper is a first ballot Hall of Famer. Here's why...

Let's start by looking at Chipper's unique skill of hitting for power and average from both sides of the plate. Yes, besides being #3 on the all-time switch hitter HR list behind Mickey Mantle and Eddie Murray (ahem, two Hall of Famers) with 408 HR (through 2008 season), Chipper has a career .310 AVG. In fact, Jones is the only switch hitter in history to compile a career .300+ AVG and 400+ HR.

Historically, third basemen usually hit for average or power. Let's look at other HoF third basemen power numbers starting at the top with Mike Schmidt. Schmidt hit a whopping 548 HR—the most by any third basemen—but only batted a lifetime .267. Behind Schmidt is former Brave Eddie Matthews who hit 512 HR and a batted .270. No other third basemen comes close to those power numbers, except Chipper, whose 408 HR will snugly place him next to those two guys if he can stay healthy. Did I mention Jones has 14 consecutive seasons with 20+ HR? Well, there you go. Taking a peek at SLG (Slugging %), Chipper's .548 tops the current HoF statistical leader for third basemen, Mike Schmidt and his .527.

As far as hitting for average, Chipper's .310 career average puts him in nice company. George Brett had a career .305 AVG while Wade Boggs leads third basemen in the HoF with a .328 AVG. Chipper also adds 2 Silver Slugger awards and a 2008 Batting Title for his .364 AVG to his list of accolades. If we look at OBP (On-Base %), Chipper has a .408 OBP while the statistical leader in the HoF is Wade Boggs with a .415 OBP.

Perhaps a slightly better measurement to gauge a hitter's effectiveness is OPS (On-Base + Slugging), in which Chipper's .956 OPS blows past the rest of the HoF third basemen. And while we're talking about production, I should mention Chipper's 1,374 RBIs (thanks to 8 consecutive 100+ RBI seasons) sits him between Brooks Robinson's 1,357 and Eddie Matthews' 1,453.

We can't talk about Chipper Jones without mentioning his 1999 NL MVP year. Jones piled the numbers high and wide in 1999 becoming the only player in MLB history to end a season with a .300+ AVG, 40+ HR, 40+ 2B, 100+ RBI, 100+ R, 100+ BB and 20+ SB. Chipper also holds another unique place in the record books with 14 consecutive games with an extra base hit (tied Paul Waner). Chipper's other notable accolades includes 6 All-Star selections, though we shouldn't put much value into those.

If Chipper remains healthy, he just might end up being the most statistically well-rounded third basemen to ever step foot on the baseball diamond. He hits for average and power (from both sides of the plate) and has put together a very consistent career during a period mired with scandal. If Chipper stays clean and healthy, his numbers will be plenty to make it in the Hall of Fame.

Hall

by Matt Thompson

In an effort to be authentic and offer full disclosure, I am a huge Braves fan. Growing up I was an Astros fan because my neighbor who lived across the street was the pitching coach for the Astros. I met Nolan Ryan (nicest guy ever), but from about age 10 on I was a Braves fan. That was all we could watch in Orlando—TBS and the Braves. So when it was time to decide on a player to kick HoNH off with, Chipper Jones was a great choice.

I told my wife we chose him and she said "he should get into the hall just for having seven bastard kids and nine wives—that is quite an accomplishment." That is pure Awesome.

On the surface, Chipper appears to be a no brainer. In 2096 games, 417 HR, 1414 RBI, .310 BA, .545 Slugging, and 2350 hits all are impressive numbers. When you consider he's done this from both sides of the plate, it's even more impressive. However, that is always the argument for a player that is a switch hitter. "Wow! He hit from both sides of the plate and put up these numbers!" But if you think about it, why should that gain more traction? Switch hitting is a decision—a decision that should give you an advantage against a pitcher, not an advantage to get into the Hall. All a switch hitter is doing is improving their chances to have better numbers. Is it harder? Yes. Is it impressive to do the hardest thing in sports from both sides of the plate? Yes. Is it a skill to point out when getting into the Hall? I am not sold on that one.

I also don't think his MVP award is something to hang his hat on. In 1999 (the year he won), he had a great year, don't get me wrong. But the series down the stretch where he owned the Mets really pushed him over the edge. I am not one to believe that you win or lose an MVP in September.

I always look for comparisons. Comparing Jones to the greats of all time, with some pop in the bat, he stacks up:

Player	G	HR	RBI	BA	SLG
Schmidt	2404	548	1595	.267	.527
Matthews	2391	512	1453	.279	.509

Jones finished in the top 10 for MVP 6 times in 15 years and has 8 consecutive years with 100+ RBIs. If you project Jones' numbers through 2010 (playing roughly the same number of games as Schmidt and Matthews), he should end up with approximately 450 HR, 1550 RBI, .300+ BA, .530+ Slugging and 2500 hits.

Remember I said "pop in the bat?" Let's look at George Brett and Wade Boggs—two HOFers not known for their power. Excluding HRs, Brett and Boggs had:

Player	G	BA	H	2B	R
Brett	2707	.305	3154	665	1583
Boggs	2440	.328	3010	578	1513

Looking at Jones for runs (1419) and doubles (463), he is right on track, just missing the elusive 3,000 hits.

Now, if Chipper Jones is looking for a "father of the year" award or a nice anniversary card from the wife, he might not win. But an HOFer? You bet your ass. And since he's a switch hitter, go ahead and bet both sides of your ass.

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